Return-Path: X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Lite Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 22545021; Mon, 23 May 2005 03:00:56 -0700 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #405 Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 03:00:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.3 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #405 1. Re: stagehands who don't understand... by "Paul Guncheon" 2. Re: stagehands who don't understand... by Dale Farmer 3. Re: Updating and Repairing a theater by "Chris Warner" 4. Automatic fly systems by 5. Public thanks to Delbert & Co. by "Jonathan S. Deull" 6. Re: Updating and Repairing a theater. by "Scheu Consulting Services" 7. Re: Automatic fly systems by Jerry Durand 8. Re: Automatic fly systems by Greg Bierly 9. Re: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. by MissWisc [at] aol.com 10. Re: Automatic fly systems by Greg Bierly 11. Re: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. by "Jonathan S. Deull" 12. Re: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. by Greg Bierly 13. Re: Automatic fly systems by Bill Sapsis 14. CRE: ucumbers? by Bill Sapsis 15. Re: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. by Bill Sapsis 16. Re: Updating and Repairing a theater. by Bill Sapsis 17. Re: Updating and Repairing a theater. by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 18. Exporting VectorWorks to ACIS solids by Joe *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 04:23:19 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Re: stagehands who don't understand... Message-id: <003c01c55ed9$ce0ab6d0$0202a8c0 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: > operators, but I worry that we'll have a generation of > stagehands who don't understand how a counterweight > fly system works. > > June Abernathy But haven't we been hearing exactly that complaint since the late 1400's?>> ... and your point is? It may be just me but I have never worked in a theatre with "automated" linesets and wouldn't exactly put them into the category of obsolete technology. To remove them totally from a learning facility does not, in my opinion, make sense. To do what we do we need to know a lot of stuff. A whole lot of stuff. As I have maintained before, I always want to get more crayons in the box. It's like how to drive stick. Although I have hesitance in saying it when it is true, I always dislike saying" I don't know". Laters, Paul "Nay!" said Tom hoarsely. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4290BD90.A6203E8A [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:12:48 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: stagehands who don't understand... References:

Paul Guncheon wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > operators, but I worry that we'll have a generation of > > stagehands who don't understand how a counterweight > > fly system works. > > > > June Abernathy > > But haven't we been hearing exactly that complaint since the late > 1400's?>> > > ... and your point is? It may be just me but I have never worked in a > theatre with "automated" linesets and wouldn't exactly put them into the > category of obsolete technology. To remove them totally from a learning > facility does not, in my opinion, make sense. > > To do what we do we need to know a lot of stuff. A whole lot of stuff. As > I have maintained before, I always want to get more crayons in the box. > It's like how to drive stick. > > Although I have hesitance in saying it when it is true, I always dislike > saying" I don't know". Many ( most? ) of the stage houses out there have some sort of counter weight system. Unless the rigging fairy comes along and waves a wad of million dollar bills, that's what is going to remain installed for a long time yet to come. Second point is that someone who has a decent working knowledge of running a counterweight system is able to, after a short time to learn the control system for automated rigging, be able to be totally functional with it. The converse is not true. So, for a high school or college, I argue that keeping a counterweight system running for the teaching value is important. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001801c55efc$793604c0$6401a8c0 [at] chris> From: "Chris Warner" References: Subject: Re: Updating and Repairing a theater Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:31:30 -0700 > This is just opinion, of course, but I find the > apparent fondness for automated linesets in > educational settings troubling. I realize that it > makes a certain amount of sense with largely untrained > operators, but I worry that we'll have a generation of > stagehands who don't understand how a counterweight > fly system works. June, I would have to agree with you on that point. Working in several education facilities with students, training students how to safely handle the flysystem with adult supervision, is key. chris -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.15 - Release Date: 5/22/2005 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000c01c55f09$f8bd0a10$0200a8c0 [at] lpt> From: References: Subject: Automatic fly systems Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:08:06 -0500 Organization: Minnesota Ballet Throwing my two bits (I've got more than just 2 cents) into motorized battons: I think they are wonderful for the electrics since they are usually the heaviest, not including orchestra shells. It's nice to add a light or two with out having to re-weight. But I do have some issues with motorized battons. My first complaint is that of the systems I've seen the largest number of battons that I could move at the same time was 2. Usually it's only one at a time with a dial switch. That makes it impossible to do many of the scene changes I want to do when up to 8 things are flying at the same time. This forces me to put scenery not where I want it, but dependant upon which dial switch it's on compared to what else I need to move at the same time. Second, I haven't seen a motorized batton that has a variable speed. The scene changes take place at once pace only. Third, getting a motorized batton with scenery to hit its mark just right is hard. On a drop coming in, if you don't get it just right the drop either stops short, or hits the deck with a loud clank. Then to fix it, the drop "bounces" with the tap of the button rather than gently and slowly. This bouncing on the motor can blow a fuse (or something) and freeze your scene change. It's happened to me. A guy had to climb up into the loft and reset the motors. Not ideal during a show. Four. When a batton snags for whatever reason, a motor doesn't know that and keeps moving. On a rope you feel the tension and know something is wrong. I was at a house where I had little fly space and tied a pulley system to the batton to give me more height. The TD of the theatre tied off the aircraft cable to the wall and forgot. When the batton moved by motor he didn't know something was wrong until the tie-line holding the pulley snapped, but not before half of his batton was now bent a good 45 degrees downward! Five: I agree with June that there is more to a fly system. We'll all agree that there is more to a light board than just the "Go" button, so reducing the fly system to just a button also seems limiting.Technical theatre is also an art form. At some point with all the automation will there be a point where it is no longer "live theatre?" People might as well go see the robots at Chucky-Cheese or ride It's a Small Word. It all depends on your needs as a theater. In an elementary school it's great for the things that school needs. As I tour the nation I play theaters that are posh with the nicest, latest toys with a pro crew to small towns where the only theatre is in the high school or middle school. If the theatre is going to used for multiple reasons, then I think more thought needs to go into getting a motorized fly system. My two bits Kenneth Pogin Production Manager Minnesota Ballet ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan S. Deull" Subject: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:05:22 -0400 Message-ID: Kudos and thanks to Delbert Hall, Tracy Nunnally and the team at = Northern Illinois University for putting on an outstanding four-day performer = flying workshop under the auspices of the National Association of Flying = Effects Directors.=A0 It was filled with valuable information and real-life = experience ranging from basic rigging principles and safety practices to an = in-depth and hand-on exploration of a number of different ways to put performers safely into the air.=A0 We played with a range of simple and complex = static and dynamic systems including manual pendulum and track systems and some very high-end automation.=A0 We also tied a lot of knots, pulled rigging components apart with a big machine, load-tested rigs with a = dynamometer, had a tug-of war where one small woman outpulled 15 guys, electrocuted pickles, and set a stunt man on fire.=A0 What more could you ask for? Thanks to all who helped to put it together.=20 Jonathan jdeull [at] clarktransfer.com ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Scheu Consulting Services" Cc: ab [at] adamb.com Subject: RE: Updating and Repairing a theater. Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:12:49 -0400 Organization: Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: stagecraft [at] adamb.com wrote: > But the one that I think >really needs to be done is the whole fly system. And Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: >Ah, if only it were the case that no consultant was also a vendor. We'd >have fewer people specifying the equipment they want to sell and more >people specifying the equipment the theatre really needs. As Uncle Bill once (and often has) said "Pick me! Pick me!" Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com Tel: 315.422.9984 fax: 413.513.4966 ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050522155524.03661008 [at] localhost> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:58:40 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Automatic fly systems In-Reply-To: References:

At 01:08 PM 5/22/2005, you wrote: >People might as well go see the robots at Chucky-Cheese or ride It's a >Small Word. I just imagined a combo of the two...Pizza place with a Small World theme. :( BTW, I lived a few blocks from where the original C-C opened. I've since moved west and don't know if they still exist. [Yes, I know I'm not THAT far west, but I don't go by there anymore.] ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Message-Id: From: Greg Bierly Subject: Re: Automatic fly systems Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:39:38 -0400 Preface that I am not a vendor only an end user. I have only just seen the following system once and don't know its full specs. > My first complaint is that of the systems I've seen the largest > number of battons that I could move at the same time was 2. Usually > it's only one at a time with a dial switch. The new Vortek system installed in a local high school can move multiple linesets at once in multiple directions with the use of a touchscreen panel. I don't know how many. > Second, I haven't seen a motorized batton that has a variable speed. > The scene changes take place at once pace only. These are variable speed. The speed will ramp up and down as they reach the preset limits or programmed end points > Third, getting a motorized batton with scenery to hit its mark just > right is hard. IIRC the height of the batten was shown in inches out to two decimal points. > Four. When a batton snags for whatever reason, a motor doesn't know > that and keeps moving. I was told the system has dynamic load measurement that could tell if it fouled. I don't know this for a fact but sounded plausible. Any system can be cause damage. In my present facility with 70' battens it takes so much inertia to get the lineset moving it can be very difficult to tell if your softgoods are caught. I have torn two legs in my 8 years here and I consider myself an accomplished flyman (as I put on my nomex suit :-) ) > Five: I agree with June that there is more to a fly system. We'll all > agree that there is more to a light board than just the "Go" button, > so reducing the fly system to just a button also seems limiting. With the advent of systems that overcome your first four limitations I don't see scenic automation (fly, wagon, or other) as anything but another tool to be used in our craft. Now replacing the actors with automation is a whole 'nuther' ballgame. Greg Bierly Technical Director Hempfield HS ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: <12d.5cfb357b.2fc2728b [at] aol.com> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:40:59 EDT Subject: Re: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. In a message dated 5/22/5 4:05:52 PM, jdeull [at] clarktransfer.com writes: << electrocuted pickles >> The cucumber kind or the ones that run chain motors (which we all know aren't approved for theatrical/upside down use yet we use them that way anyway.)? And I hope you also extinghushed the fire on the stunt man before you left! Kristi ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Message-Id: <09c3c4b7536658b54372bf59395cf7a4 [at] dejazzd.com> From: Greg Bierly Subject: Re: Automatic fly systems Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:47:09 -0400 I forgot to mention the lighting could not be installed on time since the Vortek password (for the control system) was expiring on a daily basis. As far as I know things are working fine now but made things annoying for a while. Greg Bierly Technical Director Hempfield HS ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan S. Deull" Subject: RE: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:35:16 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The cucumber kind or the ones that run chain motors (which we all know aren't approved for theatrical/upside down use yet we use them that way anyway.)? Definitely cucumber. We wouldn't think of using a chain hoist, or any component thereof, for a purpose or in a manner for which it is not intended. A vegetable, however, is another matter. Jonathan ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Greg Bierly Subject: Re: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:58:28 -0400 > (which we all know aren't approved for theatrical/upside down use yet > we use them that way anyway.) That is so "yesterday." Now they are manufactured with inverted use in mind. As I understand the original CM lodestars had a gravity relay that didn't like to be inverted but have been spring loaded since before I got into the business 15 years ago. I don't think CM would be doing motor school for our industry if they weren't approved for our use. Now the one thing I rarely see is deadhanging trussing, scenery, and speakers, once the load is lifted into position and removing the load from the motors. IIRC that was the approved method 10 years ago. That may have changed also. Greg Bierly Technical Director Hempfield HS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:09:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Automatic fly systems From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: I think there are several issues at stake when it comes to automated systems. Back in the day, as they say, a number of us were concerned that no one would ever remember how to run a "hemp" system. Well, nowadays, most people don't know how to run a hemp system and even though I love rope systems and would rather run one of them than anything else, I have to recognize that their day is done. (For my money there is nothing more elegant than a properly run rope house>) Counterweight systems are starting a long and slow demise. Y'all may remember the chat we had a little while ago that counterweight systems are not longer permitted in Belgium or Holland. But it will take a long time for them to go away completely. I'm figuring about 30 - 40 years. The issues I have with "automated" systems are A) They aren't really automated. They're motorized. Just because they are programmable does not make them automatic. B) They require maintenance of a much higher level than, say, a counterweight system. (or a VW) And almost no one knows how to do that maintenance. Many of us used to work on our cars. We did all the basic maintenance stuff ourselves. Now, when I open the hood to my Hybrid I look in, shake my head and then close the hood again. Then I call the service shop. (fortunately, I haven't needed the shop for anything other than basic maintenance. The Hybrid is great. We ALL should be driving one. But that's a different mailing list) C) These systems do not think. So someone must do the thinking for them. In a high school setting where the operator is permitted to push a button and then walk back stage to talk to his/her girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever, then there's going to be problems, And if you thought a run away arbor was ugly, just wait to you see what kind of damage a 3 HP winch moving a set piece at 54 fpm can do. Some people are being trained how to run a motorized system but not many are trained in how to take care of them. I worry about what happens when these new winches, be they Vortek's or PowerLifts or some other machine start breaking down. They are machines, after all. They will break down without proper maintenance. When I worried about people no longer running hemp systems I was concerned about the loss to our craft. Now, when I worry about people no longer running counterweight systems, I'm actually worrying about what happens when a motorized system fails. And without the proper care it's not a question of if the system will fail but when it will fail. Would you run your car without any maintenance at all for five years or longer? I suspect not. But that's exactly what's happening in the rigging business. Systems get bolted to the roof steel and it's "out of sight, out of mind." Oh, and by the way... WARNING! Commercial Plug! AFAIK, I have the only factory trained maintenance team in the US. The team has been in place for years. Can't convince very many venue mangers/owners/etc. That the service is needed. (A good system failure that makes the front page will take care of that.) OK. That's my $.02 worth. Your mileage may vary. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:13:18 -0400 Subject: CRE: ucumbers? From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: The controllers are normally called pickles. And they are approved for use in the inverted position and they are approved for use in theatrical settings. While it's true that we do break a couple of rules with chain hoists, these two are not among them. And I really wish I could find the original post, as I really have no idea what the vegetable reference really is. (never stopped me from shooting my mouth off before, eh?) Be well Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html on 5/22/05 8:35 PM, Jonathan S. Deull at jdeull [at] clarktransfer.com wrote: > The cucumber kind or the ones that run chain motors (which we all know > aren't approved for theatrical/upside down use yet we use them that way > anyway.)? > > Definitely cucumber. We wouldn't think of using a chain hoist, or any > component thereof, for a purpose or in a manner for which it is not > intended. A vegetable, however, is another matter. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:17:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Public thanks to Delbert & Co. From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Great. Now I find the original post. After I already responded to it. Figures. Anyway, the use of deadhangs in conjunction with chain hoists is pretty common in the rest of the world. We just don't so it here. In the last 30 odd years I've only seen it done two or three times here, and in all cases the head rigger was from outside the USA. It's one of several rules we break. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html on 5/22/05 8:58 PM, Greg Bierly at gbierly [at] dejazzd.com wrote: > That is so "yesterday." Now they are manufactured with inverted use in > mind. As I understand the original CM lodestars had a gravity relay > that didn't like to be inverted but have been spring loaded since > before I got into the business 15 years ago. I don't think CM would be > doing motor school for our industry if they weren't approved for our > use. Now the one thing I rarely see is deadhanging trussing, scenery, > and speakers, once the load is lifted into position and removing the > load from the motors. IIRC that was the approved method 10 years ago. > That may have changed also. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:20:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Updating and Repairing a theater. From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: OK. I pick Peter. What game are we playing? I hope it's Ollie ollie oxen free. I like that one. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html on 5/22/05 6:12 PM, Scheu Consulting Services at peter [at] scheuconsulting.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >> Ah, if only it were the case that no consultant was also a vendor. We'd >> have fewer people specifying the equipment they want to sell and more >> people specifying the equipment the theatre really needs. > > As Uncle Bill once (and often has) said > > "Pick me! Pick me!" > > Peter Scheu > > Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. > www.scheuconsulting.com > Tel: 315.422.9984 > fax: 413.513.4966 > ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Cc: peter [at] scheuconsulting.com Subject: RE: Updating and Repairing a theater. Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:03:46 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c55f3b$aa7fd260$6801a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: > > >Ah, if only it were the case that no consultant was also a vendor. > >We'd > >have fewer people specifying the equipment they want to sell > and more > >people specifying the equipment the theatre really needs. > > As Uncle Bill once (and often has) said > > "Pick me! Pick me!" I would trust Bill Sapsis and one or two other vendors to write an honest spec, but otherwise, my comment stands. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.20050523031119.015edde0 [at] pop.paonline.com> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 23:11:19 -0400 From: Joe Subject: Exporting VectorWorks to ACIS solids We have part of a project that was created in Vectorworks. The remainder will be designed in SolidWorks, which is a solid modeler and will not import meshes. The VectorWorks designer is not that familiar with issues like this, so may not know how to give me a format that Solidworks can accept. (any Solid modeler format should be acceptable, IGES, SAT, Parasolid, etc) I realize it may not simply be an issue of exporting in a particular format and expecting the model to translate. It may involve changing 3-d objects inside of VectorWorks into another internal format before exporting. Any suggestions I can give to the VW designer? A secondary goal is to get the VW drawings in a format where someone can open it is AutoCAD and edit it, complete with dimensions and other annotation. Joe Dunfee joe [at] dunfee.com Gordonville, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #405 *****************************